Toyota EV Strategy


Skip Cave
 


Eric Johnson
 

Both Japan and Great Britain are island nations, with relatively high population density, when compared to the USA.  Road trips by car tend to be shorter.  People are more accustomed to using trains for longer trips.  It's good to see that Japan in particular has reduced the carbon dioxide released from auto transportation in recent years.

On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 12:40 PM Skip Cave <skip@...> wrote:


Philip Timmons
 

This is not so much "Strategy" as it is "splaining."   

Thing Toyota is missing is the Electric Roadway.   But so are most of the intentional EV makers. 

That is going to chop EV costs in half-again.  

Hydrogen costs as much as Gasoline.   

And Toyota only did the Prius for the Corporate Clean-Air attainment requirements -- so they could build the more profitable large land-beasts.    And then the Prius took off due the Bush-War era Oil going over $100 per barrel.  

And the China "fossil" nonsense misses China is LEADING the world in both building and installing Renewables.  



On Monday, December 27, 2021, 01:01:28 PM CST, Eric Johnson <vaxaugustifolium@...> wrote:


Both Japan and Great Britain are island nations, with relatively high population density, when compared to the USA.  Road trips by car tend to be shorter.  People are more accustomed to using trains for longer trips.  It's good to see that Japan in particular has reduced the carbon dioxide released from auto transportation in recent years.

On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 12:40 PM Skip Cave <skip@...> wrote:


David Geise
 

Hydrogen is not competitive with BEV's for passenger cars (even Toyota agrees): https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/

David Geise

“Adults keep saying: ‘We owe it to the young people to give them hope.’ But I don’t want your hope. I don’t want you to be hopeful. I want you to panic. I want you to feel the fear I feel everyday. And then I want you to act as if your house is on fire. Because it is.”  
– Greta Thunberg

“Our species needs, and deserves, a citizenry with minds wide awake and a basic understanding of how the world works.” 
- Carl Sagan

“We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using Nature's inexhaustible sources of energy — sun, wind and tide. ... I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don’t have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that. “ 
- Thomas Edison

“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little” - Franklin D. Roosevelt


On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 2:03 PM Philip Timmons via groups.io <philiptimmons=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
This is not so much "Strategy" as it is "splaining."   

Thing Toyota is missing is the Electric Roadway.   But so are most of the intentional EV makers. 

That is going to chop EV costs in half-again.  

Hydrogen costs as much as Gasoline.   

And Toyota only did the Prius for the Corporate Clean-Air attainment requirements -- so they could build the more profitable large land-beasts.    And then the Prius took off due the Bush-War era Oil going over $100 per barrel.  

And the China "fossil" nonsense misses China is LEADING the world in both building and installing Renewables.  



On Monday, December 27, 2021, 01:01:28 PM CST, Eric Johnson <vaxaugustifolium@...> wrote:


Both Japan and Great Britain are island nations, with relatively high population density, when compared to the USA.  Road trips by car tend to be shorter.  People are more accustomed to using trains for longer trips.  It's good to see that Japan in particular has reduced the carbon dioxide released from auto transportation in recent years.

On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 12:40 PM Skip Cave <skip@...> wrote:


Eric Pratt
 

I agree with Philip T. that Toyota is just "splaining".  They probably want to keep a high profit product in the market as long as they can.

The author of the article and Akio Toyoda are completely wrong.  Combustion exhaust from all forms, including Internal Combustion, is a major problem for living things/brains (https://www.pnas.org/content/117/25/13856).

And burning hydrogen is not benign when Air is used.  It produces NOx compounds.  Those compounds are one reason DFW is a non-attainment area for EPA air quality standards.

We need to get rid of the idea of burning things as a way to get the energy we want.

Eric Pratt

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 12/27/2021 4:54 PM, David Geise wrote:
Hydrogen is not competitive with BEV's for passenger cars (even Toyota agrees): https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/

David Geise

“Adults keep saying: ‘We owe it to the young people to give them hope.’ But I don’t want your hope. I don’t want you to be hopeful. I want you to panic. I want you to feel the fear I feel everyday. And then I want you to act as if your house is on fire. Because it is.”  
– Greta Thunberg

“Our species needs, and deserves, a citizenry with minds wide awake and a basic understanding of how the world works.” 
- Carl Sagan

“We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using Nature's inexhaustible sources of energy — sun, wind and tide. ... I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don’t have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that. “ 
- Thomas Edison

“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little” - Franklin D. Roosevelt


On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 2:03 PM Philip Timmons via groups.io <philiptimmons=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
This is not so much "Strategy" as it is "splaining."   

Thing Toyota is missing is the Electric Roadway.   But so are most of the intentional EV makers. 

That is going to chop EV costs in half-again.  

Hydrogen costs as much as Gasoline.   

And Toyota only did the Prius for the Corporate Clean-Air attainment requirements -- so they could build the more profitable large land-beasts.    And then the Prius took off due the Bush-War era Oil going over $100 per barrel.  

And the China "fossil" nonsense misses China is LEADING the world in both building and installing Renewables.  



On Monday, December 27, 2021, 01:01:28 PM CST, Eric Johnson <vaxaugustifolium@...> wrote:


Both Japan and Great Britain are island nations, with relatively high population density, when compared to the USA.  Road trips by car tend to be shorter.  People are more accustomed to using trains for longer trips.  It's good to see that Japan in particular has reduced the carbon dioxide released from auto transportation in recent years.

On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 12:40 PM Skip Cave <skip@...> wrote:
Interesting view on EVs from Toyota:


Skip


Skip Cave
Cave Consulting LLC


R. Michael Martin
 

We need to get rid of the idea of burning things as a way to get the energy we want  <<< YES

Its really quite archaic considering its a 19th C solution.


On Dec 29, 2021, at 20:58, Eric Pratt via groups.io <ewpratt@...> wrote:

I agree with Philip T. that Toyota is just "splaining".  They probably want to keep a high profit product in the market as long as they can.

The author of the article and Akio Toyoda are completely wrong.  Combustion exhaust from all forms, including Internal Combustion, is a major problem for living things/brains (https://www.pnas.org/content/117/25/13856).

And burning hydrogen is not benign when Air is used.  It produces NOx compounds.  Those compounds are one reason DFW is a non-attainment area for EPA air quality standards.

We need to get rid of the idea of burning things as a way to get the energy we want.

Eric Pratt

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 12/27/2021 4:54 PM, David Geise wrote:
Hydrogen is not competitive with BEV's for passenger cars (even Toyota agrees): https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/

David Geise

“Adults keep saying: ‘We owe it to the young people to give them hope.’ But I don’t want your hope. I don’t want you to be hopeful. I want you to panic. I want you to feel the fear I feel everyday. And then I want you to act as if your house is on fire. Because it is.”  
– Greta Thunberg

“Our species needs, and deserves, a citizenry with minds wide awake and a basic understanding of how the world works.” 
- Carl Sagan

“We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using Nature's inexhaustible sources of energy — sun, wind and tide. ... I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don’t have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that. “ 
- Thomas Edison

“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little” - Franklin D. Roosevelt


On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 2:03 PM Philip Timmons via groups.io <philiptimmons=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
This is not so much "Strategy" as it is "splaining."   

Thing Toyota is missing is the Electric Roadway.   But so are most of the intentional EV makers. 

That is going to chop EV costs in half-again.  

Hydrogen costs as much as Gasoline.   

And Toyota only did the Prius for the Corporate Clean-Air attainment requirements -- so they could build the more profitable large land-beasts.    And then the Prius took off due the Bush-War era Oil going over $100 per barrel.  

And the China "fossil" nonsense misses China is LEADING the world in both building and installing Renewables.  



On Monday, December 27, 2021, 01:01:28 PM CST, Eric Johnson <vaxaugustifolium@...> wrote:


Both Japan and Great Britain are island nations, with relatively high population density, when compared to the USA.  Road trips by car tend to be shorter.  People are more accustomed to using trains for longer trips.  It's good to see that Japan in particular has reduced the carbon dioxide released from auto transportation in recent years.

On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 12:40 PM Skip Cave <skip@...> wrote:
Interesting view on EVs from Toyota:


Skip


Skip Cave
Cave Consulting LLC


Robert Virkus
 

What would be the energy cost of using nearly pure oxygen to burn the hydrogen thus avoiding the NOx production?


On Wednesday, December 29, 2021, Eric Pratt <ewpratt@...> wrote:

I agree with Philip T. that Toyota is just "splaining".  They probably want to keep a high profit product in the market as long as they can.

The author of the article and Akio Toyoda are completely wrong.  Combustion exhaust from all forms, including Internal Combustion, is a major problem for living things/brains (https://www.pnas.org/content/117/25/13856).

And burning hydrogen is not benign when Air is used.  It produces NOx compounds.  Those compounds are one reason DFW is a non-attainment area for EPA air quality standards.

We need to get rid of the idea of burning things as a way to get the energy we want.

Eric Pratt

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 12/27/2021 4:54 PM, David Geise wrote:
Hydrogen is not competitive with BEV's for passenger cars (even Toyota agrees): https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/

David Geise

“Adults keep saying: ‘We owe it to the young people to give them hope.’ But I don’t want your hope. I don’t want you to be hopeful. I want you to panic. I want you to feel the fear I feel everyday. And then I want you to act as if your house is on fire. Because it is.”  
– Greta Thunberg

“Our species needs, and deserves, a citizenry with minds wide awake and a basic understanding of how the world works.” 
- Carl Sagan

“We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using Nature's inexhaustible sources of energy — sun, wind and tide. ... I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don’t have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that. “ 
- Thomas Edison

“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little” - Franklin D. Roosevelt


On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 2:03 PM Philip Timmons via groups.io <philiptimmons=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
This is not so much "Strategy" as it is "splaining."   

Thing Toyota is missing is the Electric Roadway.   But so are most of the intentional EV makers. 

That is going to chop EV costs in half-again.  

Hydrogen costs as much as Gasoline.   

And Toyota only did the Prius for the Corporate Clean-Air attainment requirements -- so they could build the more profitable large land-beasts.    And then the Prius took off due the Bush-War era Oil going over $100 per barrel.  

And the China "fossil" nonsense misses China is LEADING the world in both building and installing Renewables.  



On Monday, December 27, 2021, 01:01:28 PM CST, Eric Johnson <vaxaugustifolium@...> wrote:


Both Japan and Great Britain are island nations, with relatively high population density, when compared to the USA.  Road trips by car tend to be shorter.  People are more accustomed to using trains for longer trips.  It's good to see that Japan in particular has reduced the carbon dioxide released from auto transportation in recent years.

On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 12:40 PM Skip Cave <skip@...> wrote:
Interesting view on EVs from Toyota:


Skip


Skip Cave
Cave Consulting LLC


Robert Virkus
 

Also, what about hydrogen fuel cells? Do they also produce NOx compounds? Thanks.


On Thursday, December 30, 2021, Robert Virkus via groups.io <Contrarian0=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
What would be the energy cost of using nearly pure oxygen to burn the hydrogen thus avoiding the NOx production?

On Wednesday, December 29, 2021, Eric Pratt <ewpratt@...> wrote:

I agree with Philip T. that Toyota is just "splaining".  They probably want to keep a high profit product in the market as long as they can.

The author of the article and Akio Toyoda are completely wrong.  Combustion exhaust from all forms, including Internal Combustion, is a major problem for living things/brains (https://www.pnas.org/content/117/25/13856).

And burning hydrogen is not benign when Air is used.  It produces NOx compounds.  Those compounds are one reason DFW is a non-attainment area for EPA air quality standards.

We need to get rid of the idea of burning things as a way to get the energy we want.

Eric Pratt

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 12/27/2021 4:54 PM, David Geise wrote:
Hydrogen is not competitive with BEV's for passenger cars (even Toyota agrees): https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/

David Geise

“Adults keep saying: ‘We owe it to the young people to give them hope.’ But I don’t want your hope. I don’t want you to be hopeful. I want you to panic. I want you to feel the fear I feel everyday. And then I want you to act as if your house is on fire. Because it is.”  
– Greta Thunberg

“Our species needs, and deserves, a citizenry with minds wide awake and a basic understanding of how the world works.” 
- Carl Sagan

“We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using Nature's inexhaustible sources of energy — sun, wind and tide. ... I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don’t have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that. “ 
- Thomas Edison

“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little” - Franklin D. Roosevelt


On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 2:03 PM Philip Timmons via groups.io <philiptimmons=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
This is not so much "Strategy" as it is "splaining."   

Thing Toyota is missing is the Electric Roadway.   But so are most of the intentional EV makers. 

That is going to chop EV costs in half-again.  

Hydrogen costs as much as Gasoline.   

And Toyota only did the Prius for the Corporate Clean-Air attainment requirements -- so they could build the more profitable large land-beasts.    And then the Prius took off due the Bush-War era Oil going over $100 per barrel.  

And the China "fossil" nonsense misses China is LEADING the world in both building and installing Renewables.  



On Monday, December 27, 2021, 01:01:28 PM CST, Eric Johnson <vaxaugustifolium@...> wrote:


Both Japan and Great Britain are island nations, with relatively high population density, when compared to the USA.  Road trips by car tend to be shorter.  People are more accustomed to using trains for longer trips.  It's good to see that Japan in particular has reduced the carbon dioxide released from auto transportation in recent years.

On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 12:40 PM Skip Cave <skip@...> wrote:
Interesting view on EVs from Toyota:


Skip


Skip Cave
Cave Consulting LLC


David Geise
 

According to this study by the State of Connecticut, hydrogen fuel cells produce no NOx: https://chfcc.org/resources/fuel-cell-environmental-impact/.  But a hydrogen fuel cell car will require more energy expenditure than a BEV.  If the grid is not 100% renewable, then the production of hydrogen will produce GHG emissions: https://thedriven.io/2018/11/15/hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-have-three-times-emissions-of-battery-evs-uq-study/.

Here's an interesting article on the GHG emissions produced by burning hydrogen in furnaces: https://www.thechemicalengineer.com/features/hydrogen-the-burning-question/.

David Geise

“Adults keep saying: ‘We owe it to the young people to give them hope.’ But I don’t want your hope. I don’t want you to be hopeful. I want you to panic. I want you to feel the fear I feel everyday. And then I want you to act as if your house is on fire. Because it is.”  
– Greta Thunberg

“Our species needs, and deserves, a citizenry with minds wide awake and a basic understanding of how the world works.” 
- Carl Sagan

“We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using Nature's inexhaustible sources of energy — sun, wind and tide. ... I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don’t have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that. “ 
- Thomas Edison

“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little” - Franklin D. Roosevelt


On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 9:20 AM Robert Virkus <Contrarian0@...> wrote:
Also, what about hydrogen fuel cells? Do they also produce NOx compounds? Thanks.

On Thursday, December 30, 2021, Robert Virkus via groups.io <Contrarian0=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
What would be the energy cost of using nearly pure oxygen to burn the hydrogen thus avoiding the NOx production?

On Wednesday, December 29, 2021, Eric Pratt <ewpratt@...> wrote:

I agree with Philip T. that Toyota is just "splaining".  They probably want to keep a high profit product in the market as long as they can.

The author of the article and Akio Toyoda are completely wrong.  Combustion exhaust from all forms, including Internal Combustion, is a major problem for living things/brains (https://www.pnas.org/content/117/25/13856).

And burning hydrogen is not benign when Air is used.  It produces NOx compounds.  Those compounds are one reason DFW is a non-attainment area for EPA air quality standards.

We need to get rid of the idea of burning things as a way to get the energy we want.

Eric Pratt

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 12/27/2021 4:54 PM, David Geise wrote:
Hydrogen is not competitive with BEV's for passenger cars (even Toyota agrees): https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/

David Geise

“Adults keep saying: ‘We owe it to the young people to give them hope.’ But I don’t want your hope. I don’t want you to be hopeful. I want you to panic. I want you to feel the fear I feel everyday. And then I want you to act as if your house is on fire. Because it is.”  
– Greta Thunberg

“Our species needs, and deserves, a citizenry with minds wide awake and a basic understanding of how the world works.” 
- Carl Sagan

“We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using Nature's inexhaustible sources of energy — sun, wind and tide. ... I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don’t have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that. “ 
- Thomas Edison

“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little” - Franklin D. Roosevelt


On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 2:03 PM Philip Timmons via groups.io <philiptimmons=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
This is not so much "Strategy" as it is "splaining."   

Thing Toyota is missing is the Electric Roadway.   But so are most of the intentional EV makers. 

That is going to chop EV costs in half-again.  

Hydrogen costs as much as Gasoline.   

And Toyota only did the Prius for the Corporate Clean-Air attainment requirements -- so they could build the more profitable large land-beasts.    And then the Prius took off due the Bush-War era Oil going over $100 per barrel.  

And the China "fossil" nonsense misses China is LEADING the world in both building and installing Renewables.  



On Monday, December 27, 2021, 01:01:28 PM CST, Eric Johnson <vaxaugustifolium@...> wrote:


Both Japan and Great Britain are island nations, with relatively high population density, when compared to the USA.  Road trips by car tend to be shorter.  People are more accustomed to using trains for longer trips.  It's good to see that Japan in particular has reduced the carbon dioxide released from auto transportation in recent years.

On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 12:40 PM Skip Cave <skip@...> wrote:
Interesting view on EVs from Toyota:


Skip


Skip Cave
Cave Consulting LLC