On Aug 12, 2021, at 1:31 PM, Robert Virkus <Contrarian0@...> wrote:

Reminds me of "beautiful, clean coal". 

On Thursday, August 12, 2021, Bill Byrom via groups.io <bill=byrom.net@groups.io> wrote:

Recent research indicates that "blue hydrogen" is even worse for the climate than burning natural gas directly for fuel. "Blue hydrogen" is hydrogen produced from methane (natural gas) and then separating and sequestering the carbon dioxide byproduct). The New York Times published an article today titled "For Many, Hydrogen Is the Fuel of the Future. New Research Raises Doubts." about this new research result. Toyota has put a lot of effort into hydrogen vehicles. Hydrogen when used for powering vehicles is fine, but the issue here is how it is created. Using hydrolysis from water takes a lot of electricity and could be done close to a wind or solar farm or somewhere else on the power grid. It's too bad than small residential hydrolysis units aren't available at this time, or you could fill up your hydrogen vehicle at your house from local solar or grid solar or wind electricity and a bit of water.

Read the research paper at:

How green is blue hydrogen?
First published: 12 August 2021
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ese3.956

Recent research indicates that "blue hydrogen" is even worse for the climate than burning natural gas directly for fuel. "Blue hydrogen" is hydrogen produced from methane (natural gas) and then separating and sequestering the carbon dioxide byproduct). The New York Times published an article today titled "For Many, Hydrogen Is the Fuel of the Future. New Research Raises Doubts." about this new research result. Toyota has put a lot of effort into hydrogen vehicles. Hydrogen when used for powering vehicles is fine, but the issue here is how it is created. Using hydrolysis from water takes a lot of electricity and could be done close to a wind or solar farm or somewhere else on the power grid. It's too bad than small residential hydrolysis units aren't available at this time, or you could fill up your hydrogen vehicle at your house from local solar or grid solar or wind electricity and a bit of water.

Read the research paper at:

How green is blue hydrogen?
First published: 12 August 2021
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ese3.956

Paul,

 

FYI

The link did not work when I tried it.

 

Robert L

 

*From:* main@NTREG.groups.io <main@NTREG.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Paul Westbrook via groups.io
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 10, 2021 7:13 AM
*To:* main@NTREG.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [NTREG] Ground Source Heat Pump installer

 

Bill mentioned one of the local installers. Review my past presentation on GSHP for more details. Next month marks 25 years of using GSHP for us. We replaced the indoor unit a few years ago (leaking indoor evap coil and old refrigerant availability drove the decision), but the original ground loop is still humming along fine.
https://www.ntreg.org/dnld/2020-05-09%20Ground%20Source%20Heat%20Pumps%20-%20Paul%20Westbrook.pdf

Paul

Robert,

The link worked for me.

Here's another: https://www.ntreg.org/pastmeetings.html#2020

Scroll down to May, 2020. Paul's presentation is available for download as a PDF.

Dan

On 8/10/21 8:29 AM, Robert Lagerblad wrote:

Paul,

FYI

The link did not work when I tried it.

Robert L

From: main@NTREG.groups.io main@NTREG.groups.io *On Behalf Of *Paul Westbrook via groups.io

Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2021 7:13 AM

To: main@NTREG.groups.io

Subject: Re: [NTREG] Ground Source Heat Pump installer

Bill mentioned one of the local installers. Review my past presentation on GSHP for more details. Next month marks 25 years of using GSHP for us. We replaced the indoor unit a few years ago (leaking indoor evap coil and old refrigerant availability drove the decision), but the original ground loop is still humming along fine.

https://www.ntreg.org/dnld/2020-05-09 Ground Source Heat Pumps - Paul Westbrook.pdf

Paul

Bill mentioned one of the local installers. Review my past presentation on GSHP for more details. Next month marks 25 years of using GSHP for us. We replaced the indoor unit a few years ago (leaking indoor evap coil and old refrigerant availability drove the decision), but the original ground loop is still humming along fine.
https://www.ntreg.org/dnld/2020-05-09%20Ground%20Source%20Heat%20Pumps%20-%20Paul%20Westbrook.pdf

Paul

Paul,

 

FYI

The link did not work when I tried it.

 

Robert L

 

*From:* main@NTREG.groups.io <main@NTREG.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Paul Westbrook via groups.io
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 10, 2021 7:13 AM
*To:* main@NTREG.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [NTREG] Ground Source Heat Pump installer

 

Bill mentioned one of the local installers. Review my past presentation on GSHP for more details. Next month marks 25 years of using GSHP for us. We replaced the indoor unit a few years ago (leaking indoor evap coil and old refrigerant availability drove the decision), but the original ground loop is still humming along fine.
https://www.ntreg.org/dnld/2020-05-09%20Ground%20Source%20Heat%20Pumps%20-%20Paul%20Westbrook.pdf

Paul

Bill mentioned one of the local installers. Review my past presentation on GSHP for more details. Next month marks 25 years of using GSHP for us. We replaced the indoor unit a few years ago (leaking indoor evap coil and old refrigerant availability drove the decision), but the original ground loop is still humming along fine.
https://www.ntreg.org/dnld/2020-05-09%20Ground%20Source%20Heat%20Pumps%20-%20Paul%20Westbrook.pdf

Paul

I will try to remember to post here when the Volvo ECR305CL demolition excavator starts knocking down my old house later this week. I will also try to catch the geothermal well drilling rig when it's active. The link I gave only shows the live image, but I have 10 days of archived video available at the Nest website. So I can create a "greatest hits" reel showing machinery in action!

—

Bill

On Mon, Aug 9, 2021, at 5:04 PM, thewineprince via groups.io wrote:

Sounds cool! I will want to watch this!

Michael Schwartz

May the Schwartz be with you

“We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using Nature's inexhaustible sources of energy — sun, wind and tide. ... I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don’t have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that. “

- Thomas Edison

Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐

On Monday, August 9th, 2021 at 2:30 PM, Bill Byrom via groups.io <bill@...> wrote:

Excel Geothermal is going to install the GSHP system in the new house I’m building this summer. See:

https://www.excelgeothermal.com/

I’m getting a ClimateMaster system (made in Oklahoma City) with the highest available Energy Star EER rating. Hot water will be from the desuperheater used by the system. 

My project will use vertical wells, which require a drilling rig. That’s easy for my project, since my old house and foundation will be demolished by Dallas Demolition later this week, so the geothermal drilling rig will have easy access. 

The progress (or lack thereof) can be seen on my old house demolition & new house construction webcam at:

https://cam.byrom.net

—

Bill

On Mon, Aug 9, 2021, at 12:45 PM, thewineprince via groups.io wrote:

We have a 15 year old HVAC sustem that will probably need to be replaced in the near future.  I’d like to go to a Ground Source Heat Pump. Are there people who install GSHPs in DFW?

Warm Regards,

Michael schwartz

Sent from ProtonMail for iOS

Michael,  NTREG member Bill Neukranz installed geothermal system at his Plano home in 2007 and was featured on the 2015 DFW Solar Tour.  Bill was very happy with his system but acknowledge there was a lot of drilling involved and associated permit soft costs.  Unfortunately, Bill passed away a few years ago so you can’t contact him.  I attached Bill’s host information as it appeared on the tour website and photo of his front yard after drilling completed.

 

I am NOT an expert but It is my opinion that these days there may be better residential options than geothermal.  Heat pump technology has really advanced.  I am looking at mini-split systems for our 400 sf guest house since the current system is also nearing end of life cycle. 

 

Paul Westbrook would stress efficiency.  Paul’s home is a model of efficiency.  He also wrote a book titled Joy of Efficiency that is well worth reading and available on Amazon.  Our home pales in comparison.

 

Others will have more suggestions but that’s my two cents.

Mellen

 

From: main@NTREG.groups.io <main@NTREG.groups.io> On Behalf Of thewineprince via groups.io
Sent: Monday, 9 August, 2021 12:46 PM
To: main@ntreg.groups.io
Subject: [NTREG] Ground Source Heat Pump installer

 

We have a 15 year old HVAC sustem that will probably need to be replaced in the near future.  I’d like to go to a Ground Source Heat Pump. Are there people who install GSHPs in DFW?

 

Warm Regards,

Michael schwartz

 

Sent from ProtonMail for iOS

Sounds cool! I will want to watch this!

Michael Schwartz

May the Schwartz be with you

“We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using Nature's inexhaustible sources of energy — sun, wind and tide. ... I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don’t have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that. “

- Thomas Edison

Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐

On Monday, August 9th, 2021 at 2:30 PM, Bill Byrom via groups.io <bill@...> wrote:

Excel Geothermal is going to install the GSHP system in the new house I’m building this summer. See:

https://www.excelgeothermal.com/

I’m getting a ClimateMaster system (made in Oklahoma City) with the highest available Energy Star EER rating. Hot water will be from the desuperheater used by the system. 

My project will use vertical wells, which require a drilling rig. That’s easy for my project, since my old house and foundation will be demolished by Dallas Demolition later this week, so the geothermal drilling rig will have easy access. 

The progress (or lack thereof) can be seen on my old house demolition & new house construction webcam at:

https://cam.byrom.net

—

Bill

On Mon, Aug 9, 2021, at 12:45 PM, thewineprince via groups.io wrote:

We have a 15 year old HVAC sustem that will probably need to be replaced in the near future.  I’d like to go to a Ground Source Heat Pump. Are there people who install GSHPs in DFW?

Warm Regards,

Michael schwartz

Sent from ProtonMail for iOS

Excel Geothermal is going to install the GSHP system in the new house I’m building this summer. See:

https://www.excelgeothermal.com/

I’m getting a ClimateMaster system (made in Oklahoma City) with the highest available Energy Star EER rating. Hot water will be from the desuperheater used by the system. 

My project will use vertical wells, which require a drilling rig. That’s easy for my project, since my old house and foundation will be demolished by Dallas Demolition later this week, so the geothermal drilling rig will have easy access. 

The progress (or lack thereof) can be seen on my old house demolition & new house construction webcam at:

https://cam.byrom.net

—

Bill

On Mon, Aug 9, 2021, at 12:45 PM, thewineprince via groups.io wrote:

We have a 15 year old HVAC sustem that will probably need to be replaced in the near future.  I’d like to go to a Ground Source Heat Pump. Are there people who install GSHPs in DFW?

Warm Regards,

Michael schwartz

Sent from ProtonMail for iOS

On Aug 9, 2021, at 1:53 PM, Robert Virkus <Contrarian0@...> wrote:

My concept assumes solar energy not oil to fuel the ships and the desalination process. The issue of toxic byproducts depends on whether the toxicity is due to increase concentrations of already existing chemicals or if the process adds chlorine and copper that was not originally in the seawater. If it's the former that can be dealt with by dilution before rejection back into the sea. If it's the latter that requires either further treatment at higher cost or a better process. 

But I generally agree that desalination should be used after other options. In principle, water use for a large city could and should  approach very high levels of recycling, near 100% in the future.

On Monday, August 9, 2021, Mellen West <mellenmail@...> wrote:

Robert. Stationary floating desalinization plants are in use today. 

 

Saudi Arabia is #1, USA in 2^nd place.  https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/may/27/desalination-quest-quench-worlds-thirst-water

 

Your water tanker desalination is already practiced too.  A Houston based company called Watership Blue is active in the arena https://www.waterworld.com/international/desalination/article/16202931/worleyparsons-and-watershipblue-announce-msa-for-floating-desal-project

 

However there are environmental concerns about the practice as #1 tankers are fueled by bunker oil (very dirty) and byproducts of the desalinization process are not very nice.

 

In most desalination processes, for every litre of potable water produced, about 1.5 litres of liquid polluted with chlorine and copper are created. When pumped back into the ocean, the toxic brine depletes oxygen and impacts organisms along the food chain.  https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/story/towards-sustainable-desalination

 

Hope this helps.

Mellen

 

From: main@NTREG.groups.io <main@NTREG.groups.io> On Behalf Of Robert Virkus
Sent: Monday, 9 August, 2021 12:30 PM
To: main@ntreg.groups.io
Subject: [NTREG] Intersting Article about Water

 

Thanks for the insights on water use in energy generation!

 

Meanwhile I have a concept I'd like opinions on and it should be in a fresh thread but I don't know how to start one.

 

A supertanker can hold 2 million barrels of oil. Imagine that was fresh water which would, amount to over 80 million gallons!

Now consider that there is an acute water crisis in many places such as California. Desalination technology is one part of the answer but there are issues such as using energy and plant siting as well as lengthy environmental impact studies required to build any large projects not to mention the cost of the land itself.

 

My concept, and I'm sure it's not original, is building supertanker sized floating desalination plants the use solar power to do the desalination as well as power the ship in and out of port. A ship would tool around the coast using solar energy to desalinate water and minimize the issue of what to do with the waste salts but continually moving around while it's doing the desalination. When it's full it comes to port to pump the fresh water for use. Bringing the salts and by products ashore for industrial use would also be an option. 

 

The only question is if the numbers would work out such as area needed for solar panels and size of the desalination equipment vs the time to desalinate a tanker full of fresh water. And of course cost. I suspect the cost would well compare to building a land based plant especially if the cost of land on the west coast is figured into the economics.

 

As of last year there were 810 large oil tankers cruising the globe. As oil use decreases many of these might be converted. I heard from an expert a few years ago that the world will still be crisscrossed by large tankers in the future but they will all be carrying fresh water not oil.

 

What do people think of this concept? Thanks.

On Thursday, August 5, 2021, alanford2 via groups.io <alanford2=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

A lot of water is circulated to dissipate the waste heat, but only about 820 gallons per MWH is evaporated in a cooling tower.

 

Alan Ford

 

From: main@NTREG.groups.io <main@NTREG.groups.io> On Behalf Of Kevin Janak
Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 10:40 AM
To: main@ntreg.groups.io
Subject: Re: [NTREG] Intersting Article about Water

 

I can offer my insight on this question based on my experience. Most natural gas fired turbine sets are in a combined cycle configuration which uses a significant amount of water to make steam to also power a steam turbine to increase energy output. In addition, some of the steam is injected into the natural gas turbine to increase power output as well. 

 

On a separate issue with respect to geothermal energy, I want to point out that it does use a significant  amount of water in the form of cooling towers to reduce the temperature during the cooling cycle of the process. 

 

Kevin Janak 

 

On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 9:45 AM Robert Virkus <Contrarian0@...> wrote:

"It typically takes hundreds of thousands of gallons per MWH to generate electricity from natural gas"

 

Mark,

 

 Can  you elaborate a bit on how the water is used? Is it evaporative loss in cooling towers?

 

Thanks,

 

Rob

On Wednesday, August 4, 2021, R. Michael Martin <mm@...> wrote:

100%  be engaged and educate your reps (I sense that is common among the NTREG crew!)

 

 

On Aug 4, 2021, at 16:18, Mellen West via groups.io <mellenmail=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

 

Tell your elected officials They probably won’t listen but at least you did more than complain on this venue.   I try to make it a habit to share my views with the GREAT LAWMAKERS before complaining elsewhere.

M

 

From: main@NTREG.groups.io <main@NTREG.groups.io> On Behalf Of R. Michael Martin
Sent: Tuesday, 3 August, 2021 3:03 PM
To: main@NTREG.groups.io
Subject: Re: [NTREG] Intersting Article about Water

 

I’ll vote for these measures! 

 

 

On Aug 3, 2021, at 14:25, thewineprince via groups.io <thewineprince=protonmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

 

Maybe its time to change city, county and state ordinaces, perhaps nationally, and start the installations and retrofits before it becomes in your face dire. Personally I feel massive changes are long overdue. But once they happen I think people are very adaptable and will actually like the changes. Many think new ways are cool. 

 

The incentives need to change, such as expanding the federal tax credit for EVs, not ending it, just to name one example. An economic incentive to retrofit with composting toilets, replace your grass with  native water friendly species, installing solar, beefing up insulation and the many other things we have the knowlege and tech to do right now would go a long way to saving aquafers and lowering energy requirements proactively before things becoming even more dire. 

 

Sent from ProtonMail for iOS

 

 

On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 2:02 PM, Eric Johnson <vaxaugustifolium@...> wrote: 

We did not ask to live in a time and place where we are running out of resources like water, but here we are, and it must be dealt with.  It is possible to live with less water, and composting toilets do exist.  Maybe it's time to begin the discussion.

 

On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 12:57 PM Mellen West <mellenmail@...> wrote:

San Antonio sucking an aquifer dry?  Past time to change Right of Capture laws?
https://www.texastribune.org/2021/08/02/san-antonio-water-supply-rural-wells/?utm_source=Texas+Tribune+Newsletters&utm_campaign=4aee4d0504-trib-newsletters-top-story-alert&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_d9a68d8efc-4aee4d0504-101243557&mc_cid=4aee4d0504&mc_eid=0c03be8f33

 

 

 

 

 

 

We have a 15 year old HVAC sustem that will probably need to be replaced in the near future.  I’d like to go to a Ground Source Heat Pump. Are there people who install GSHPs in DFW?

Warm Regards,

Michael schwartz

Sent from ProtonMail for iOS